The first five quotes in your notes is kind of some background and some context that speaks to several different issues. The first one from Testimonies Volume 5, page 101, it says, with the ungodly there will be a deceptive harmony that but partially conceals a perpetual discord. In their opposition to the will and truth of God, they are united while on every other point they are rent with hatred, emulation, jealousy, and deadly strife. This is a quote, there's others where she teaches this, but this one to me is one that needs to be factored in when you're looking at the United Nations, the papacy in the United States coming together in the threefold union here in the last days, because they come together in a threefold union, but they're not in agreement with one another. They hate each other, but they're forced through the circumstances to come together to push the agenda that they're pushing. And Sister White says that very thing very clearly in this passage. The only thing they're united on is against the truth. That struggle between the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet, if you don't understand the hatred between them, then it's difficult to understand. And when in Revelation 17 and 18 that the ten kings, the United Nations, agree to give their kingdom to the papacy, and shortly thereafter in the passage, they burn the papacy with fire and eat her flesh. I mean, why are they giving their kingdom to the papacy if they're going to turn around a destroyer? That dynamic between these three powers I want to put in place, because I want to consider the illustration of that threefold union that takes place in the United States before the Sunday Law, and the three players in the United States are not—they're going to come together just as the Pharisees and Sadducees came together at the cross to crucify Christ, but the Pharisees and Sadducees were not in agreement with one another, neither will the Republicans and the Democrats or that factor in this unity of the wicked needs to be understood. The agencies of evil are combining their forces and consolidating their strength and need for the last great crisis. Great changes will soon take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones. Everything that we're speaking about here now should be understood as taking place in a rapid sequence, in a rapid sequence of events, and it's the last crisis, the last great crisis she's speaking of. And then the next quote from Review and Herald that says, as God's people approach the final crisis, they must with increasing power proclaim the message he's given to them. The warning must be given to the churches. God's requirements must be laid before those who are transgressing his law. They must be made to understand that this is a life and death question. God's remnant people are to fill the earth with pride of the third angel. So as we're approaching this last great crisis, the final crisis, the message that we've been given is to increase in power and in strength, and you kind of have to ask yourself what church is she speaking to in that passage. She says, the warning must be given to the churches. God's requirement must be laid before those who are transgressing his law. I have no problem considering that the churches in general, all the churches that profess to be Christian churches need to hear the warning. But technically, the law that's the issue of the third angel, and that's what she's talking about, is the fourth commandment, the Sabbath commandment, and she very clearly teaches that the people in the fallen churches that don't understand the distinction between Sabbath and Sunday, they're not held accountable for transgressing God's law until light has been given to them. So I would almost argue that this passage is as much saying that our responsibility is to be taking this message to the Seventh-day Adventist church as it is to the churches in general. Seventh-day Adventist churches need to understand that this message that's being unsealed right now is the life and death question, and they need to be warned as the final crisis approaches. Sketches from the life of Paul says, God would have his people prepared for the soon-coming crisis. Prepared or unprepared, we must all meet it. Only those whose characters are thoroughly disciplined to meet the divine standard will be able to stand in that testing time. So don't ever forget that the coming crisis, the crisis that we're in now, is a testing time. But when the enemies shall be on every side watching them for evil, the God of heaven will be watching his precious jewels for good. When secular rulers unite with the ministers of religion to come between God and our conscience, then those who cherish the fear of God will be revealed. Okay, the lifting up of the end sign is going to take place when church and state, the rulers of the secular world and the rulers of religion, come together to come between God and our conscience. That's the Sunday Law time period, and it's at that point that his people will be revealed. When the darkness is deepest, then the light of a noble God-like character will shine the brightest. When every other trust fails, then it will be seen who have an abiding trust in God. And Testimonies, Volume 5, 463, this is an interesting quote. I won't go into it, but she has, she says this, she writes this pretty much the very same thing earlier in her ministry. And the first time she wrote this opening phrase, she said, the church might have to present this message under a most terrible crisis. But that was early on in Adventism, and then later on, as their apostasy deepened, she wrote the same thought this way. The work which the church is spelled to do in a time of peace and prosperity, she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidden circumstances. The warning that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. At that time, the superficial conservative class whose influence steadily retarded the progress of the work will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. So in this final crisis, we have a message to give. The message is supposed to increase in power, in agreement with the progress of the crisis that's taking place. It is a testing time, and when you get to the conclusion of the testing time, those people that haven't really had a genuine faith in the prophetic message that they've been involved with will take sides with the enemy as the church is purified and the 144,000 are revealed in that time of darkness. So those are just some thoughts that I wanted to put in place before I really address what I wanted to address. Last Sabbath, when we had the Zoom meeting, one of the things that I was trying to share in that meeting was that as we come to this particular history, the message that's being unsealed—and it's line upon line, there are several lines of prophecy that are being unsealed, but it's all the seventh seal—not only is it going to produce light about the prophetic events that are going to take place, but it's a test for God's people. And I'm arguing that the test includes the responsibility for us individually to understand the prophetic methodology that confirms this message. It's no longer going to be safe for a spouse of someone that understands its message to think that they can depend upon their spouse's understanding to get them through. It must be an individual understanding. Brother Bud, last Sabbath, corrected me because I was given an overview of Daniel 11 in the context of the chapter being a prophetic test, being a prophecy that tests our aptitude on understanding the message of Daniel 11. And as I was running along giving my overview, I identified that Uriah Smith called the king of the north in verse 36 of Daniel 11, Turkey, and that wasn't true. Uriah Smith was wrong in verse 36, but Turkey comes into his wrong conclusion up in verse 40 in his three-way war. The point was, after I was thinking about what Bud had corrected me on, and rightly so, is that I, in my haste just to give an overview, I had defined a prophetic symbol in Daniel 11 incorrectly as I was identifying that Uriah Smith had identified a prophetic symbol in Daniel 11 incorrectly. And it struck me afterwards that the Lord was trying to make the point to discuss this element of Daniel 11, that there are some historic arguments within Daniel chapter 11 that will destroy your ability to understand the message if you take the wrong identification of a symbol. And if we're going to consider, and I am going to consider in these articles, the concepts that Daniel 11 is like the final test. For instance, in Daniel chapter 1, Daniel goes through this three-step testing process. He determines on his first test that he's going to eat the heavenly diet. Then after 10 days, Melzar—I think it's Melzar—checks him out, and Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego look fairer and fatter than everyone that's eating the Chaldean diet. And then at the end of their three years of education, they go in before Nebuchadnezzar, and he face-to-face gives them their final test. And what I'm saying is that Daniel 11 is essentially our final test, and individually we need to understand this chapter. And this chapter has issues within the history of Adventism that need to be understood correctly. Verse 36 of the verse 40, Uriah Smith's identification of the King of the North, the daily—who is it that establishes the vision? Is it Antiochus Epiphanes, or is it Rome? And so when it comes to considering Daniel chapter 11 as a test that we must all master here in this final crisis, if we're going to give the message, there are stumbling blocks within the history of Advent understanding of Daniel 11 that are to be considered by us so that we don't make the same missteps. So that being said, Colin has brought up more than once, but last Sabbath, and he brought it up, I think, perhaps a Sabbath before, the idea that the United States is modern Rome. And I explained last Sabbath why I understand modern Rome to be the threefold union. And as I look at how Colin uses the terminology, the term for the United States being modern Rome, and then takes the history from Rome and shows how it would typify history within the United States, I get the connection there, but I don't think modern Rome is the United States. I think modern Rome is the threefold union of the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet. that comes into history at the Sunday Law. So I wanna walk through why I believe that. And in doing so, part of the reason I was willing to do that is in Clayton and I's study this week, we came across a spirit of prophecy quote that was in one of the articles. And I'm gonna have to paraphrase it here for you, but many of you will be familiar with it. She says, we should not set at ease thinking everything's all right, because there is no controversy or agitation among God's people. That's a broad paraphrase, but that's what she's saying. She's saying, if we think that there is no further prophetic light from God's word, and we're just sitting around fat and happy, thinking that we understand it all and all as well, then we don't really understand the depth of God's word. And in the passage I'm referring to, she identifies that agitation and controversy are something that would accompany a genuine study of God's prophetic word. And I don't find myself in any kind of controversy with Colin at all over what he's teaching, because as he describes the work of the United States before the Sunday law and the various prophecies that typify the role that they fulfill, I'm pretty sure I'm in agreement with all I'm hearing him say there. I just think that I wouldn't call the United States modern Rome, and I want to give my reasons for calling the threefold union that arrives at the Sunday law, modern Rome, for the purpose of all of us to consider it perhaps over this next week and figure out how we understand it. So now we understand it. Now we're starting into this study. Testimonies, volume 7, 182 says, as we approach the last crisis, it is a vital moment that harmony and unity exist among the Lord's instrumentalities. The world is filled with storm and war and variance, yet under one head, the papal power, the people will unite to oppose God in the person of his witnesses. The union is cemented by the great apostate. While he seeks to unite his agents in warring against the truth, he will work to divide and scatter its agates. Jealousy, evil surmising, evil speaking are instigated by him to produce discord and dissension. The head of the threefold union is the papal power. And if you drop down to the third from the last reference in the notes, it's from Great Controversy 588, it says the Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism. They'll reach over the abyss to clasp the hand of the Roman pope. And under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome and trampling on the rights of conscience. Great Controversy 588. There's a couple other places where she talks about the threefold union, as she does here, and she ties it directly in with the Sunday Law. What I'm wanting you to see here is that the Protestants of the United States is the United States. Spiritualism is the religion of the United Nations, and the United States is gonna come into agreement with the United Nations. And they're also going to come into agreement with the Roman power, and the Roman power here is the papacy. So the threefold union, which occurs at the Sunday Law, Sister White is identifying that the one head of that threefold union is the Roman power, and it's not the Protestant churches. The Protestant churches have their own role. The Protestant churches in this context represents the United States. So when she's using the Protestant churches as the United States, spiritualism as the United Nations, and the Roman power as the papacy, I would submit that the last manifestation of Rome is this threefold union. That is modern Rome. And the word modern in prophecy, I would submit is the entity at the end of the world, whether it's modern Israel, modern Babylon, modern Rome. Modern Islam. So going back up to the quotes where I left off, under the head, restore the lost ascendancy. In this time of prevailing iniquity, the Protestant churches that have rejected it, thus say if the Lord will reach a strange pass, they will be converted to the world. In their separation from God, they will seek to make falsehood and apostasy from God, the law of the nation. They will work upon the rulers of the land to make laws to restore the lost ascendancy of the man of sin who sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God. The Roman Catholic principles will be taken under the protection of the state. The protest of the Bible will no longer be tolerated by those who have not made the law of God their rule of life. Review and Herald, December 21st, 1897. So when the calling the United States, modern Rome, from my understanding is confusing the symbols because the United States Protestant, apostate Protestantism in the United States is going to establish Rome at the Sunday law as the head of the threefold union. And at the Sunday law, they're also going to establish Roman Catholic principles, basically under the heading of the Sunday law as opposed to the Sabbath. So I understand there's a work that the United States does in placing the papacy on the throne of the earth that has been typified by pagan Rome because pagan Rome placed the papacy on the throne of the earth. But modern Rome at the end of the world is the threefold union. I guess one of the ways I would explain it is that in a triple application of prophecy, and that's how I view Rome, the first manifestation of Rome was pagan Rome. The second manifestation was papal Rome, but papal Rome was a Rome that was twofold. It was the church controlling the 10 kings, the civil structure to do its dirty work. And modern Rome is threefold. So it's a development of Rome as it goes through history and using a triple application of prophecy as the guide for this, the elements of pagan Rome combined with the elements of papal Rome will establish the elements of modern Rome, which is the third Rome. And in the articles, we've taken time to show how in Revelation eight, where the demise of Western Rome, and then in Revelation nine, the conclusion of Eastern Rome are laid out prophetically that Rome has a threefold element in its prophetic makeup. Constantine divided the Roman empire into three with his three sons. Western Rome introduced the political structure that is threefold, and they had their emperor, the Caesar, the Senate and the pro-council or whatever it was, a threefold union. And the pioneers recognize these threefold makeups of Eastern and Western Rome in Revelation eight and nine as elements of Rome that are part of a triple application of prophecy that even though pagan Rome was singular and papal Rome was two parts with the papacy controlling the kings of Europe, their witness, their two witnesses that defines the third manifestation of Rome clearly identifies the threefold makeup of modern Rome. So I'm believing that modern Rome, it's correct to identify modern Rome as the beast, the dragon and the false prophet at the end of time. And along with that is I'm recognizing personally that from verse 16 to verse 30 in Daniel 11 is the testimony of pagan Rome and verse 31 to verse 40 is the testimony of papal Rome and verse 40 to 45 is the testimony of modern Rome. And in Daniel 11, those three lines of history are not only given as three lines of history that would be repeated in the last verses of Daniel 11, but they're emphasizing a triple application of prophecy because as much as anything else, we're repeating the parable of the 10 virgins and the parable of the 10 virgins was also a fulfillment of Habakkuk chapter two. And in Habakkuk chapter two, there is a question raised by the watchman about what will be my message in the controversy of my history. And it's from that question of verse one in Habakkuk two, that Miller or the Millerites were told to write the vision and make it plain upon tables. And I'm contending that the vision is written upon the tables of our hearts and the vision that's written upon the table of our hearts is the vision that Daniel seen in chapter 10, the Mara, not the Mare, the vision, the causative vision that transforms God's people into the 144,000. And they are the ensign that has been typified by Habakkuk's tables because the law and the prophecy have been written upon the tables of their hearts. And what gets written upon the tables of God's last days, people's heart is the covenant. He's gonna write his covenant upon our minds and our hearts. And the vision that they see this last day people is to be written upon their hearts and their minds in order that those that see it and read it might run. So when you bring that into our history, then the methodology that took place, the argument over how to prophetically apply prophecy in the Millerite history that speaks to our history about the right and the wrong way, the right and wrong methodology to use in order to ascertain the lattering message becomes a testing element of our history. And that methodology that was opened up to us, particularly post 9-11 was the significance and importance of a triple application of prophecy. And if we'd seen a triple application of prophecy before 9-11, but 9-11, the power of that methodology that method of applying prophecy was recognized. We had seen that the first Elijah didn't die and John the Baptist, the second Elijah did die. And together, John the Baptist and Elijah represent God's people at the end of the world that come in two ways, a group that dies and a group that does not die. And there's many more elements to that triple application of prophecy. But it was important on September 11, 2001 for the Lord to lead his people back to the old past, which he did in order to understand that Islam of the third world arrived on September 11, 2001. And in order to confirm or establish that Islam was a genuine subject to prophecy, the Lord led his people at that time, post September 11th, back to the old past, whereupon both the sacred charts of Habakkuk, based upon Revelation nine, the first and the second woe were the elements of the Millerite message that were going to be, that were going to illustrate the details of the third woe when it arrived in history. And taking the elements of the first woe and the elements of the second woe and combining them to define what takes place in the history of the third woe is one of the strongest, most powerful applications of prophecy that you'll ever find. And other triple applications of prophecy are the three Rome's, pagan Rome, papal Rome, modern Rome, the three Babylon's, Babel, Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar's, Babylon and modern Babylon of Revelation 17. These triple application of prophecies. are part of the methodology that's given to God's last eight people in order for them to rightly divide the word of truth. And therefore, for me, when I see pagan Rome in verse 16 through 30, papal Rome verses 31 to 40, and modern Rome verses 40 to 45, I see that we must understand and apply correctly a triple application of prophecy to be among those that understand this message. And therefore, when it comes to a discussion about pagan Rome, papal Rome, and modern Rome, who modern Rome is becomes a serious element to understand correctly. The next quote from manuscript releases, volume 15, page 15, is the quote we've been dealing with, saying that the image of the beast will be formed before probation closes, for it is a great test for the people of God, by which their eternal destiny will be decided. It is the test that God's people must pass before they are sealed. Well, we're sealed. Our probation closes at the Sunday law, the test. The final test that we're talking about is the image of the beast test. And it's the test of recognizing the coming together of church and state in the United States that leads to the Sunday law, at which point the threefold union of the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet are going to force the world to accept an image of the beast, a political structure that encompasses the whole world, the United Church and state, with the church in control under one head, the papal power. That test is an external, is to see if we can see the external activities being fulfilled, if we have the ability to explain them to those that are willing to listen. But that test includes that the image of the beast is also an internal prophetic revelation, and that we're now in the history where all of mankind, through the circumstances of this great crisis, is either going to form the image of Christ or the image of the beast, not simply the governments of the world, but the people of the world. We're all coming down to the finish line, and we're gonna have an image in our character of one or the other. And we need to recognize that from the prophetic word. It's virtually impossible to recognize that if you've thrown out the very foundation of Adventism, particularly the seven times. But nevertheless, those of us that are standing here at the end of time, we have to recognize that internal as well as the external. Now, the next quote's a common quote. I won't read it. Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their own time than for ours, so we use that to place all the prophetic testimony in the last days at the end of time, which we're doing here. But we also, we go further when we're using this because we identify that, using some other passages, but we identify that when the prophets are illustrating something in their testimony, that they're illustrating God's people at the end of the world. The prophets represent God's people at the end of the world. And that leads me into Daniel 2, 9, and 10. And this is kind of by way of review of the articles, but we were teaching, this had been taught before the articles were written, before the disappointment but not with clarity and such firmness. But Daniel chapter two, and then Daniel chapter nine and 10 are two illustrations of Daniel. One, Daniel is in a corporate setting because he's with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. The other, he's by himself in chapters nine and 10. And he's giving a witness about God's people in the last days, that would be you and I. And there's two things, two themes that Daniel is praying for in these illustrations. In chapter two, it's a corporate prayer. He, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, they need to figure out what Nebuchadnezzar's dream is. At that point, nobody knows what his dream is. First, the Lord has to tell Daniel what his dream is. And then Daniel has to be given the interpretation that he can give to Nebuchadnezzar. But he's illustrating God's people at the end of the world that are to be praying for an understanding of the kingdoms of Bible prophecy. Sister White often says from the rise and fall of the kingdoms of Bible prophecy is the context of where prophecy is illustrated. And in the last days, God's people are to awaken from their disappointment, realize that they're in the tearing time, and pray for clarity about the sequence of events that's taking place on planet Earth. And that sequence of events that's taking place on planet Earth is hidden up until the point when Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego begin to pray for an answer of what it means. And then they are told what Nebuchadnezzar's dream was and what it meant. And they're illustrating God's people at the end of the world, and God's people at the end of the world, when they wake up and realize they're in the tearing time, must understand that unlike the Millerite understanding, Daniel chapter two, Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the image, and I changed the common terminology of that because I say it's Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the images, it's his image dream. And those kingdoms that he's dreaming about in Daniel chapter seven and Daniel chapter eight are beasts, so his dream is the dream of the image of the beast in the plural. And unlike the Millerites who saw four kingdoms, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, what's opened up in our history is that those kingdoms are actually eight kingdoms, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, papal Rome, the United States, the United Nations, and then modern Rome. This is one of my arguments here, is that the Millerites had the correct understanding as far as it would go about Daniel chapter two, and they saw four kingdoms, and the last kingdom was Rome. But we see now that literal Babylon typified spiritual Babylon, and spiritual Babylon was the papacy of the Dark Ages. The 1260 years, it was the fifth kingdom of Bible prophecy, and it was followed in 1798 by the United States that had been typified by the Medes and the Persians, a two-horned kingdom, a two-nation kingdom, just as the United States is a two-horned kingdom with Protestantism and Republicanism. And the third kingdom of Greece was going to typify a worldwide kingdom that had been typified by Alexander the Great that is the United Nations that leads to the final kingdom of Bible prophecy, and that kingdom would be Rome. The fourth kingdom was Rome, and it typified modern Rome. The fourth kingdom was ancient Rome. The eighth kingdom is modern Rome. The fourth kingdom was literal Rome. The eighth kingdom is spiritual Rome. So I'm contending that it is important to understand that this final kingdom is Rome, and that this final kingdom is not the Medes and the Persians. It's not the United States. It's a manifestation of Rome at the end of the world. And one of the things that is significant about this truth being unsealed here in the last days is that it confirms that Jesus illustrates the end with the beginning for Daniel chapter two is the first reference to the kingdoms of Bible prophecy, and Revelation chapter 17 is the last reference to the kingdoms of Bible prophecy. And in Revelation 17, there are eight heads, and that eighth head is of the seven. It is the head that received a deadly wound in 1798. It was the fifth kingdom, and it is also the eighth kingdom, eighth being a symbol, among other things, of resurrection. The papacy's deadly wound is healed. And therefore, among other things, the understanding of Revelation 17 is the last manifestation of the kingdoms of Bible prophecy, and it must agree with the first revelation of the kingdoms of Bible prophecy in Daniel two. And therefore, I would say that one of the witnesses that modern Rome is the threefold union of the papacy at the end of the world is right there in Daniel two, because that fourth, and therefore the eighth kingdom is Rome. Of course, Daniel chapter nine and 10, Daniel there is not in a corporate setting, okay? Daniel chapter two, it's a corporate setting. Everyone that's listening to this message should be praying for clarity about the prophetic message that God would continue to open his jewels to us and give us discernment and understanding that we might go to the churches and let them know that this message is life and death as we see the crisis approaching. And if you can't see the crisis approaching, your head's in the sand, because there's no way that I would have understood how crazy this world has become 10 years ago. I couldn't fathom the insanity that's going on now. It's no doubt going to get worse, but it's bad enough now to recognize that we are in the very final scenes and the final movements will be rapid ones. So in Daniel two, all of us should be praying for this prophetic, the unsealing of the prophetic message, whereas in Daniel chapter nine and 10, Daniel's there alone, and he's there doing the second part of his prayer at the end of the world in the last days representing us. And what he's doing there is the most thorough repentance that's possible. And the fact that Daniel is used to illustrate this only amplifies the importance of it. There's places where, I better not say this, it might be John, but I'm pretty sure Sister White says that Daniel is a representation of sanctification. And I know she says that maybe about John too, but in any case, there isn't any inferences in the book of Daniel that Daniel was a Laodicean sleeping seven day Adventist at the end of the world. He was walking with the Lord and from the very beginning, he put his life on the line. I'm not gonna eat that food, even if it costs me my life, and the Lord protected him. So when you get to Daniel nine and 10, and here's Daniel confessing his sins and the sins of his fathers, it's illustrating a type of repentance that's called for among God's people at the end of the world that is personal and individual. It's not anything that is corporate like Daniel chapter two. So both of these prayers are part of the testimony of the last days. And I would say the prophecy that is unsealed in terms of the kingdoms of Bible prophecy is Daniel chapter two. And it supplies evidence that the final kingdom, the eighth kingdom, the kingdom that arrives at the Sunday law is modern Rome. And therefore the kingdom that the sixth kingdom, the United States is something other than Rome in spite of the fact that the work that pagan Rome did in placing the papacy on the throne of the earth in 538, also typifies the work that the United States will do in placing the papacy on the throne of the earth. Nevertheless, the United States is not Rome. The United States is a symbol that the United States changes, okay, when you look at the papacy in Bible prophecy, both in the Bible and in history and the Roman Catholic church proclaim that they change not. Okay, they don't change. Whereas the false prophet of Revelation 16, it changes. It begins as a lamb, it ends up speaking like a beast. So there's a. period of time in the United States where you could label righteousness upon it, but it loses that lamb-like appearance early on in its history. And so it's describing a power, a kingdom that goes through a change, whereas Rome never changed, Papal Rome, and we understand Pagan Rome began with the pirates of Italy, and there isn't any evidence of anything sanctified at any point in the history of Pagan Rome, so it wouldn't qualify as a symbol of the United States, for the United States is a symbol that begins as a lamb and ends as a dragon. So, that being said, when the United States speaks as the dragon, and you have the common quote there from Great Controversy 443 at the bottom of your notes, the speaking of the nation is the action of its legislative and judicial authorities, the Great Controversy 443, when it gets to the point that the United States speaks as a dragon, it is the Sunday law. We've brought tons of spirit of prophecy quotes in the past to prove that the United States speaks as a dragon at the Sunday law. And then in Revelation 13, 11 through 18, once the United States speaks as a dragon, once it passes the Sunday law in the United States, then it goes to the world and all the nations of the world, Sister White says every nation will be involved, and it forces them to set up an image of the beast, and there's only one definition of the image of the beast, it's a combination of church and state with the church in control of the relationship. So, the work that the United States participates in after the Sunday law in placing the papacy on the throne of the earth, and the work the United States does in leading the United Nations as the premier king of the 10 kings, that work was accomplished first in the United States when the United States set up an image of the beast. And of course, this is our great test, but it's also our final test to recognize these truths. And in the combination of church and state that goes on in the United States, the two horns of the beast of the United States and Sixth Kingdom, the Republican horn and the Protestant horn are going to come together in an incorrect relationship, and by incorrect relationship, the church is the woman, the state is the man, and from the very beginning, the man was to rule over the woman, not because that was God's design, but that was God's choice after sin entered, and therefore, the marital relationship throughout history was to be with the man being the high priest of the home, the man being typified by Christ, the woman being typified by the church. That relationship is the correct relationship of a church-state relationship, but the papacy reverses it. Jezebel takes control over Ahab, and she does that because she has false prophets working with her. Jezebel had the prophets of Baal and the priests of the Grove. So the image of the beast, the church-state relationship that goes on in the United States, it takes place in a dynamic between the Republican horn and the Protestant horn, and when you see the work of the Republican horn, the state, the political power of the United States, there's often times where the prophetic testimony that is speaking to the activity of the United States is paralleling the work of pagan Rome. So you can see the tendency to understand that the United States, identify the United States as Rome, but I would argue that the prophetic testimony says that the United States is not Rome. It is an image of Rome. It's about them forming an image of the beast, and it's specific. The Rome that is pagan Rome is the dragon. Great Controversy says so directly, and when she says that in the Great Controversy, she's quoting from Revelation chapter 12 that the dragon of Revelation 12 is Satan, but in its secondary sense, it is pagan Rome. Pagan Rome is the dragon. Papal Rome is the beast. So when the United States is forming an image of Rome, if you're going to be more technical, and you should, it's not forming the image of pagan Rome, it's forming the image of papal Rome, and the image of papal Rome was the twofold manifestation of Rome, where there was a church state, but the church was ruling over the state. It was ruling over the kings of Europe. So I think we have to be careful about that terminology, and part of the reason that I'm tossing that out into the public arena for some discussion is that last Sabbath, just casually saying that Uriah Smith identified Turkey in verse 36 brought about this brief discussion, and for me, it emphasized that if Daniel chapter 11 is truly a final test for the students of prophecy that are striving to be among the 144,000, then the carefulness required by the student of prophecy is essential, and we know from the history of Adventism that one little tweak in a prophetic symbol can turn things totally off course. So I think I've said as much as I need to say about that. So the problem is, not the problem, but this isn't a rebuke. I'm not trying to rebuke Colin because he sees the United States being typified by pagan Rome, and therefore it's modern Rome. The typification of pagan Rome that is repeated in the United States, I see as well. I'm fairly confident that Colin and I both have the same application, but I think we need to be clear that modern Rome is the final Rome. It's the eighth Rome. It's the threefold union of the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet, because there was one quote in here, and I didn't really put it in here to make this point, but as I was reading it, I realized that she made the point, and I'm looking for it as I'm talking, where she, in one of the first quotes I read, she says that we're to be unified. Okay, it's in the Testimonies, Volume 7, 182, the quote about the papal power being the one head. It says, as we approach the last crisis, it is a vital moment that harmony and unity exist among the Lord's instrumentalities, and I think I'm pretty much unified with Brother Colin, but I think being careful about the term modern Rome is worth mentioning. So, I've thrown that thought out there. I'll close with prayer, and then if you wanna take a five-minute break and come back for questions, that's fine with me. Shall we pray? Heavenly Father, we thank you for this Sabbath. We thank you that you're revealing truth to us here at the end of time. We ask for discernment, wisdom, strength to take this message that's being unfilled to the churches, whether it be the churches in general or to Adventism, and we ask that you'd bless us in that endeavor and that we can settle into this truth spiritually and intellectually so that we might be unmoved when the things that are about to break forth happen before our very eyes. We thank you for these things in Jesus' name, amen. Colin, go ahead. Is Brother Jeff back, or is he there? Yeah, I'm here. Okay, Brother Jeff, happy Sabbath. Thank you so much for your presentation today and explanation. So I'll just kind of a little bit lay out maybe my feelings. So when we look at, let's say Jesus, this spitting image of God, and we know Jesus is God. So I'm just gonna put out a few things. So when we look at Jesus being, receiving a deadly wound across, we raised up as Jesus. When we think of the papacy as its deadly wound healed, it is the papacy, and Sister Wyatt says, the papacy never changes. But when we look at the threefold union in the past, it was always the sixth kingdom, the seventh kingdom, and the eighth kingdom makes up the threefold union of Revelation 16, which also the number 666 was assigned to them. So for me, I love what you said this morning, but I'm still having to reconcile my reasoning. So for example, and maybe it's flawed reasoning, but in Daniel chapter 11, dealing with the establishment of the vision, I looked at it, the establishment of the vision in our time would be apostate Protestants involved in union with Churchill State, the image of the beast in the Sunday Law crisis, to do with the Sunday Law crisis. So, and we know Rome establishes the vision, right? But also for me, I do believe there would be a league of the Jews in our time where Seventh-day Adventist, the Seventh-day Adventist Church approaches the apostate Protestants in this day and age. So Revelation, not Revelation, but Isaiah 28, dealing with the overflowing scourge and the agreement and stuff like that. So I do believe there would be a league of the Jews, but it's made with Rome. The question is, which is Rome, and then the establishment of the vision. And for me, I'm not trying to press or to say that you're wrong, but I'm just giving you my understanding of why I would say modern Rome being the United States, an image of the beast. And so when, again, I think you use the Herod, Herodias, and Salome a little different than maybe I did, because when I look with the Sunday Law crisis, which is the beheading of John, it was not done by Herodias, it was done by Salome. We know Herodias is right there, so I'm not denying that, but it was Salome that was the instrumental. And for example, Sister White says, if we wanna know about the beast, we must, or if we wanna know about the image of the beast, we must study the beast. And she talks about Romanism in the old world, apostate Protestantism in the new world. So for me, with all of that, when I look at the image of the beast, I see, I must see the beast first, and the image of the beast, we know apostate Protestants, which is a spitting likeness or a copy of. So that's why I would say the U.S., that's why I used the U.S., is modern Rome. And I'm not, I wasn't dealing with it from the point of view of the threefold union, which I see as the sixth kingdom, the seventh kingdom, and the eighth kingdom makes this threefold union of Revelation 17, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. So if you can address and give me some insight, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brother Jeff. Well, I know your prophetic aptitude is right. with mine, so you're probably aware that you ran off a handful of arguments there, and I would be thinking about one thing you were saying, and you were getting into your next one, and it's not a problem, it's not a criticism, I'm saying that you hit a lot of passages that support what you believe, and I never had, as you were going through it, I didn't have the time to run those back and forth through my mind to see if I agree with how you're applying them, and it's not up to me to agree, but I didn't have time to work through it. So you're saying the sixth, seventh, and eighth kingdom, the threefold union, it is the final satanic kingdom, right? Yeah, and I can find presentation where you would agree with that, where you would say they made up six, six, six. Yes, I agree with that, I'm not arguing that. It's the final manifestation of a political kingdom before human probation closes. Is that modern Babylon, modern Rome? What is it? If the United States before the Sunday Law is modern Rome, what is this next kingdom? Okay, so because what I'm looking at, right, so when you look, there's a threefold union, right? There's a threefold union, which you can see America is part of it, just as Salome is part of the threefold union. But what I'm saying is, you would see, when you look at Salome, she is modern Herodias. Wouldn't she be? So, because she's an image of Herodias. So I'm looking from that way. So I'm not saying the threefold union is any different than you put it forth. I totally agree with that. But I'm just saying, I think there's a justification when you look at even America going from English law to Roman law, and speaking as a dragon, we know who the dragon is. And so, America is going to do exactly what the papacy has done, because I can see it being a spiritual manifestation of the papacy. So maybe I'm just applying it wrong, in the sense of modern day or modern Rome. Maybe it's the term. Well, what I'm saying, I'm thinking that the nuts and bolts of what takes place with the United States before the Civil War, and after the Civil War, and after the Civil War, with the United States before the Sunday law, what I hear you saying, I'm pretty sure that we probably are in agreement. But I'm stumbling, if I'm stumbling at all, over the idea that modern Rome is the threefold union, and then to call the United States modern before the Sunday law, I don't have a problem calling it the image of Rome or the image of the beast. But even there, I would make a distinction that it's the image of the papal beast, not of the pagan Rome's beast. So, yeah. Oh, Brother Jeff, I just look at America as, you know, one-third of the, you know, when it comes to the, you know, dealing with the threefold union. And so that, I'm still reconciling all of this. But my question is, so if I had a specific question for today, it would be for me and my estimation, and I'm just going to give you my estimation. Can I interrupt you for a second? You've got a point in my mind based on something that you said that I want to run by you before you go on. No problem. All the prophets are speaking about the end of the world. All the illustrations of the prophetic testimony are the end of the world. So you have Jezebel, Ahab, the prophets of Baal, and the priests of grove. And as a second witness, you've got Herod, Herodias, and Salome. I would say that Herod and Ahab are the United Nations. Yes. Herodias and Jezebel are the papacy. Correct. And the prophets of Baal and Salome are the United Nations. Correct. Well, therefore, based on what I think I heard you say last time, Salome is not Herodias. Correct. She's but a modern... Right? Wouldn't she be a modern, or the new, in the sense of entity-wise, not in thought-wise, she's, for me, I see her as the same, like mother, like daughter. But I'm saying she's still not the mother. She's the daughter, which makes her just like Jesus, the Son of God. He's a spitting image of God, but He is God. Yeah, that in itself, if I'm understanding you right, I don't have a problem with that. I might not use the illustration of the Father and the Son as the example, but still, it still leaves you with the fact that you have a daughter and a mother and the United Nations at the end of the world, and they're three distinct entities. Yes. And I would argue that the head of that final threefold union is the papacy, as is in the notes, under one papal power, and that that's Rome. I agree. I 100% agree with you. Okay, Salome and the prophets of Baal, they may be the representatives. They may be a lookalike. I'm not denying that, the image of the beast. They may be a lookalike to the beast, but they're not the beast. I agree. I agree, and that's why I call the papacy the papacy, because the papacy never changes when it comes to the daughter or the prophets of grove. It's the modern version of Herodias, or it's the modern version of Jezebel. So that's why I call, because the papacy— Yeah, but when you said that, you're calling them the modern version, but the papacy and Herodias and Jezebel are still there in the modern history. Who are they? The threefold union. What I'm saying is the daughter is the spitting image of the mother, but I'm saying the mother remains the mother because the deadly wound, the papacy raises back up exactly as Sister White says. The only reason why she don't persecute is because she don't have the power to do so, and she will get that power one hour with the beast. She'll have her civil power, the deadly wound will be healed, and she'll be back to doing what she's always done. But I'm saying that a leopard can't change its spots, so the papacy is the papacy. And I understand there's a threefold union that involves the papacy, but it involves also, too, the image of the beast and the kings of this world, the civil power. So, you know, when it comes to the, maybe it's just—for me, I see there's the modern Rome, America, and I see there's that threefold union at the end of the world, but I also see that there's the papacy in the number eight position, and the threefold union being the sixth, the seventh, and the eighth kingdom. So I don't want to belittle this, you know, or maybe anybody would think that we're in odds or anything like that, because far from it. What I would like to ask, and maybe to get an understanding—and I apologize for taking up so much time—when it comes in Daniel, I think maybe it's verse 14, Daniel 11, when it comes to establishing the vision, for me, maybe my understanding is wrong about that, and I've always seen it with, you know, the Seventh-day Adventist Church making an alliance with the apostate Protestants of America, based on Isaiah chapter 28, you know, when the overflowing scourge disagreement they make. And would that be, in our time, the League of the Jews? Not so much the League, but where Rome establishes the vision, but also there's the League of the Jews. So that would be my question, if you can shed any light on that, and I will rest there. Yeah, well, we've shared in articles, and maybe even in the Zoom meetings, the quote where Sister White says that—and you have to deal with it for people that are, you know, young in their understanding of the Spirit of Prophecy—but she said something like this, the former Adventists—and she uses the term former Adventists—will show the Catholics where the Adventists live. You know that quote? Yes, yes. Okay, so there's definitely some kind of agreement. I don't know if it's a legal agreement in that passage at Ellen White's use, and there's some kind of agreement with the apostates that go and reach out to Rome to persecute the faithful, as illustrated by Judas. Okay, so that's definitely part of the story. Whether that's the League with—whether that was typified by the League with the Jews, I'm not sure. But I just—a thing that I would bring in, maybe, on our discussion is that the United States decides that the sons do all right. I agree. Okay, so although it's a threefold union, it's although it's a threefold union, it's really twofold, because it's the papacy controlling the United Nations. It's just that the United Nations is being directed by the United States, who has ceased to be the sixth kingdom of Bible prophecy. So it becomes a a dragon. At that point, it speaks as a dragon. It becomes one of the dragon power. I don't know. Kind of a complex subject, I guess. My concern for it—I'll tell you what my concern for it is, even though I don't really understand exactly how to sort out the differences between sort out the differences between you and I, but my concern is that one of the important truths that's being unsealed is that the papacy in Revelation 17 is the eighth head that is of the seven, the eighth kingdom that was of the seven kingdoms. And when the United States forms an image of the beast, every characteristic of the papal beast is repeated before the Sunday Law in the United States, including the eight is of the seven. So it's from that parallel that I can see why someone would say, well, if the papacy after the Sunday Law is the modern Rome, and the United States is forming an image of the papacy before the Sunday Law, that's modern Rome, too. But I see a distinction in the prophetic word, even though it may seem just semantics, but the United States, the best it does is it becomes the image of the beast. It never becomes the beast. Okay, so when it comes to a triple application of prophecy, for me, pagan Rome, papal Rome, modern Rome are the three applications, and if I'm going to make the United States a modern Rome, too, then I don't have a triple application of prophecy anymore. I got pagan Rome, papal Rome, modern Rome, United States, and modern Rome, the threefold union, and it starts to clutter things up for me. But maybe you're a little bit wrong, and I'm a little bit wrong, and maybe the majority of the people that are listening to us discuss this are uncertain even what they understand about it, so perhaps this is a good discussion. discussion either way, but I don't know how to bring any clarity into this, I guess, other than that I think the role of the United States, it accomplishes some of the work that pagan Rome did. It's going to form an image of papal Rome, but it's not modern Rome in a triple application of prophecy, and a triple application of prophecy is an important prophetic principle that we have to be careful with. Anyway, I'm sorry if I... No problem. Thank you. Thank you so much for bearing with me, and I'm really not trying to unsettle anything, so thank you. I know you're not. Thank you. I know you're not. We're on the same wavelength. Thank you. It's close to an important truth in terms of what goes on now in the image of the beast testing time. We can't afford to make a, to label something incorrectly, such as Uriah Smith did in verse 36, that turns all of Adventism off into the darkness over the next 150 years in terms of their prophetic application of things. Amen. Wouldn't want to do that. We have to be careful. Amen. Thank you so much, Brother Jeff. Thank you, Brother Colin. Larry or Michelle, you're next. Happy Sabbath, everybody. So I do not want to muddy the waters any more than seems to be going on, but I would want to try to make some maybe reconciliation between what Colin's trying to say and what Jeff is saying. We would understand in the first angel's message, if I understand it correctly, that the first angel holds within it the first, second, and the third angels, but it doesn't become the third angel. Is that correct? It is still the first angel. Do I understand that correctly? Yeah, that's how I would understand it, I think. I think what Colin is expressing is that if the United States is the first of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet, then within it, we're going to see modern Rome. It doesn't make it modern Rome, as you're saying, Jeff, but what Colin's seeing is a pattern of modern Rome within it. And I don't think that he's saying that it is modern Rome, or at least that maybe he used the words, but I don't think that that's what he's trying to express. It seems to me that he's saying he sees that they're performing some of the same behaviors and tasks and symbols, but they're not losing their independence as being the false prophet. Does that make sense? Does that help, or does that muddle it more? Well I think you first have to ask Colin if you've accurately reflected what he understands. If you haven't, then you've muddied the waters. No, I think Larry is good there. Yeah, and again, it's the—for me, you know, when I look at prophecy, I look at type and anti-type. So I look at the ancient fulfillment of the prophecy and see the anti-type in our days or the spiritual or the repeat, or, you know, especially because God says, whom shall I teach knowledge? Whom shall I make to understand doctrine? But we know line upon line, so I try to do it that way. So you know, again, yeah. So what Larry's saying, I hear him in loud and clear, and that's—and I like the way he put it—what Jeff is saying versus what Colin is trying to say, and that's perfect. It's exact. So thank you. So now wait a second. I'm not so sure that I agree with you. Can you express what Larry just said? Yeah. If you think you agree with him, what do you say? Okay, so when I look at the United States, right, as the image of the beast, so I would look at everything that the beast has done, right, and I see it repeat in the United States. So for example, I know maybe it wasn't the best example, but with Jesus—and I know the papacy is a copy—with Jesus, you know, he would say, you know, he would give what he's seen. If you've seen me. Yes. I'm the father, you know, and also, too, you know, I do the works of my father, right? So when it comes to the apostate Protestants, in this case, they're doing the work of their mother, which makes them likewise unto their mother. So I would—if we had to name, you know, let's say Herodias, or not Herodias, Salome, I think it's proper to call Salome modern-day Herodias. So from that point of view. If Salome is the modern-day Herodias, who is the modern-day Herodias? Okay, we know it's Jezebel, but again, there's a threefold union. On one level, there's the threefold union, which involves the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet, but nevertheless, as much as Salome is part of that threefold union, I'm saying I can still call her Herodias. Let me ask you a question, Colin, and Jeff, I guess both of you. If the first one, if number six is the United States, and the United States is one of three, we know that we tell the end of a thing from the beginning of a thing. So we should expect to see in the sixth kingdom an image of the third or eighth kingdom, in this case. Would that be a fair assessment? Yeah, it would, in my opinion. You have to see for her to be the image of the beast, and you have to see a reflection of the beast. What do you think of that, Jeff? Well, yeah, I believe the United States forms an image of the beast. But you're saying the image of the beast that it reflects is the fifth kingdom, and I'm saying if we know that the sixth, seventh, and eighth are an entity unto themselves, this has to be the reflection of the beast. I never said that. In fact, my main argument here today, I said, in the future, the papacy is going to become the eighth of the seven, and the United States is going to even repeat that future characteristic. Okay, I may have missed that, okay. Then I think what Colin, it just is what I'm hearing, because I'm trying to reconcile the discussion somewhat. What I'm hearing is Colin's, basically, that's what you're saying, is that correct, Colin? You're not trying to undermine the idea that, of course, the United States is not modern Rome, but it's repeating the same behaviors as modern Rome. It's acting the same way when it makes that image. So for me, when I look at that, I would say you can't, there's a threefold union, which we know is the makeup of modern Rome. So when you look at John the Baptist's situation, you can see Herod, Herodias, and Salome. It is Salome who gets to do the dance of deception. But there's also the level where you can identify, I do believe, Salome or the United States as modern Rome. So for me, in a spiritual way, application-wise, for me, when you read Daniel chapter 11, then you can look at it in a present truth application. If there would be an establishment of the vision, is it the papacy that brings in the Sunday Law, or is it the image of the beast? And it's the image of the beast in our time. So when you see the establishment of the vision of the robber of the people, I do believe in, for our time, as much as papal Rome is established as the robber of the people, in our time, the robber of the people is apostate Protestants. So I think where I see the issue is you're saying that Salome symbolizes, or doesn't symbolize, but is modern Rome. And the way that I would express it is, is she's an image of modern Rome. She's not modern Rome. And I think that's where Jeff is having his issue, is you're making it a definitive, but it's an image. It's not the definitive. Yeah. Okay. But in other words, right, who's in the driver's seat when it comes to the Sunday Law, right? And I'm seeing as much as the... Well, there's two Sunday Laws, right? So there's a national and a federal. Yeah. So even we can say the Sunday Law, we can be specific about it. It's the apostate Protestants of America that brings in the Sunday Law. So Revelation 13 tells us it's the image of the beast who forces the will to make an image onto the beast, right? So I'm saying... I think you want to add that word image to... If you're going to use the term modern Rome, I think you want to add the word image of modern Rome, because it's not literally... But here's what I'm saying. Right from the... The papacy does not change. It doesn't modernize. It's still the papacy. It always will be the papacy. There's a threefold union, which is different from... So for example, we are applying the phrase modern Rome, but what the Bible speaks about is a threefold union and an image of the beast, right? So it's about an application we're making, right? So the concept of the threefold union, I have no problem with that. The concept of the image of the beast, I have no problem with that. So I'm saying, for me, the papacy does not change. It doesn't modernize. What it went down as, it's going to come up as, which is... And we know it's one third of the threefold union. So maybe it's in terminology, but what I'm saying, I'm basing it all on the Bible, that the image of the beast is a reflection of the beast, right? So for example, when Jesus says, you are of your father, the devil, right? To those who reflect the devil. I'm saying he could have called them a devil, and it would be befitting still, because they're the image of Satan. That's all I'm saying. So I may be... But you recognize that the fifth kingdom, the papacy, is not... You're making the statement that you don't see a distinction between the fifth kingdom and the eighth kingdom, that there's no difference between the two. That's correct. But scripturally, we have to see that it's... The only difference I've said before is the only reason why she don't persecute is because she don't have the civil power. So for example, Revelation 17 says, was before 1798, is not. So she exists as a church all through history. And right? So was, is not, and yet is. So what you're seeing is all the papacy is waiting for a civil power, but the papacy doesn't change. That's an addition to what she is already. So when you're saying modern Rome is the papacy in conjunction with the United States as the head of the UN. Well, because the papacy has to be there because Herodias is there behind Salome. So that's what my contention is, is the bidding of... So that would be during the national Sunday law, but world Sunday law is when the papacy is going to come in and take the headship of the world, the United Nations. Of course. It's the head of the threefold union. So there's two different distinctions that are taking place between the national Sunday law and the world Sunday law. Can I jump in here? Please. The stuff you're, the things you're speaking about now are fine, but if I were going to critique where I saw the problem, if it is a problem, I think it's a problem, but I don't want to be argumentatory, is that in Millerite history, which is repeated to the very letter, there was a disagreement within their environment. And whether you heard it or not, I assume this is being recorded. I'm not thinking that Colin would deny it anyway. Colin plainly said that he believes that it's the United States that establishes the vision. In Millerite history, the Millerites believed it was Rome that established the vision. The Protestants believed primarily that it was Antiochus Epiphanes. And there was some Protestants that believed it was Islam that established the vision. But there were two erroneous positions in the Millerite history and only one correct position in Millerite history. And I'm saying that right now, I would understand that it is Rome that establishes the vision. And Colin just said it's the United States that establishes the vision. Brother Jeff, here's what I—I'll repeat what I said. I said, in our time—I did say I understand Rome established the vision, but I also talked about type and anti-type, and I'm saying in our—so I said, in our time, it's apostate—I can be wrong about that, but this is what I said. I said, in our time, it's apostate Protestants that established the vision, and I asked, is the vision dealing with the Sunday Law? So I didn't say 100% I agree Rome established the vision, but in our time, I'm saying I do believe it's about the Sunday Law. Even if I'm wrong, I'm saying I do believe it's about the Sunday Law, and it's—it's—it's apostate Protestants, and I said, dealing with the image of the beast. So I'm saying in our time. So when I say—so I'm not removing that Rome established the vision. That is 100% so. I'm saying—but as type and anti-type, I'm saying in our time, I may be wrong, and that's why I asked you to speak on it as to it will be apostate Protestants, and I put that in conjunction with the League of the Jews. I'm saying when the Adventists—Adventism would get together with apostate Protestants, so I did tie both the—the establishment of the vision in our time with the League in our time. So it's to do with— Okay, I was not claiming—I wasn't claiming that you were denying that Rome established the vision in Millerite history. That's how I understood it. What I'm saying is that I'm hearing you say that it's apostate Protestantism that establishes the vision in our time, and I'm still stuck upon the idea that it's not apostate Protestantism, but it's—it's Rome that establishes the vision. And—and by that, I would add—and I haven't ever thought at this level before about this, but it's—the whole Daniel 11 is giving histories that speak to the—the war between the King of the South and the King of the North, and the King of the North and Daniel 11 is the papacy. So for verse 14 to say that it's Rome that establishes the vision and all the lines of prophecy in Daniel 11 are about the papacy, I'm saying it's significant if we are now saying that it is the image of Rome in our history, unlike the Millerite history, that establishes the vision. I just—and I'm really—I'm doing everything I can to not be confrontational here. No, Brother Jeff, far from it. But here's— But Colin, Colin, can I say something real quick? Okay, go for it, go for it. I think what I hear you saying, Colin, is that because you're typifying the United States as—as Rome from ancient history by the role that they're playing, but I think where you might be making a mistake, and I'm not saying you are, but I'm saying that where you may be making a mistake is what's behind the—the military arm is the mother. And so the United States, while it may be doing the dance of deception as the false prophet, as Salome, as the priest of Baal, they're not the ones that are actually directing the vision. They're not the ones that are actually the thing that is in charge. It's the mother who's actually in charge. And so even with the image of the beast, Rome is establishing the vision. Brother Larry— It wouldn't be the—go ahead, yeah. What you said doesn't change anything. Here's what I said, you remember? I used Jesus, right? Yes. I used Jesus. Jesus has been an image, the father directing him, but he's still God. So it doesn't— But we do still make the distinction between the father and the son. One hundred percent, but I—remember I said God? Yes. The whole God. So I used it in that way. So, Brother Jeff, when it comes to—and, you know, if anybody knows me, I hate to, you know, to be pushing Brother Jeff or anything like that. So, Brother Jeff, when you—when I look at Daniel chapter 11 also, I can see the dynamics between the king of the North and the king of the South, the Republicans and the Democrats. So, okay. So, for example, I'll pick a verse. When dealing with the king of the North, he will certainly return. That is also Trump. And he will come with a greater multitude. That's Trump. But we know it's been fulfilled in pagan people, Rome time. So when we look at the king of the South, we know that's the Democrat. And I do believe in the start of Adventism, the North and the South dealing with America with the Civil War is there for prophetic reason, that we should—we have to understand that America is also the North and the South. So when you look at the Democrats, for example, 2020 election, abortion was on the election whatever ballot, which is dealing with bloodsport, right? Persecution or what you call them, whatever power, desecrating or not desecrating, powerful without—why am I forgetting the word? And you have the Republicans that would be, just as the papacy, a power from within, a desecrating—it's not desecrating—desolating. That's the word I'm looking for. So the Democrats are desolating, powerful without. The Republicans are desolating, powerful within. So you can see that dynamics of pagan Rome, papal Rome. But in the end, pagan Rome give way to papal Rome, you know, with all the dynamics. And I'm saying the Democrats is the same way, too. They will lose out, give way, however you want to put it, to the Republicans, which is the North. So again, for me, when we—we've always looked at prophecy from type and anti-type. It's modern-day fulfillment. And we can't—you know, things seem similar, but they're not the same scenes. They're similar. So I think we have to understand of the dynamics of America in the division of the North and the South, and in relationship to when it comes to pagan Rome, papal Rome, because that's the foundation that America—I do believe, and I can be dead wrong. And the only reason why I'm bringing it up—it's not for an argument, but I think it's more for discussion, because we're living in the time where God's people really have to certify. So I think I would do an injustice if I didn't be honest and open about, you know, what I'm seeing, because it shouldn't be a private interpretation. It should be—and Sister White said we have to put it forth to the leading men, and we examine to see if it can sustain, you know, if it can be sustained by the Scriptures. So please, anybody, that's what I'm doing. I'm not trying to— One more question. —for anyone. Go ahead, Brother Larry. One more question. When you say that Christ—when you see Christ, you've seen the Father, but you wouldn't deny that He's an image of the Father. He's not the Father. One hundred percent. I've said that. All right. So just with that context, then, when we come to what you're talking about, which I'm not arguing—I think I see your point. I think what you're—the parallel you're making is an accurate observation. The thing that I keep coming back to and I think is the issue that I'm seeing, I think it's an image, though. Just like Christ is an image of the Father, He's not the Father. I think what we're saying is that it's the image of modern Rome that America is fulfilling. It's not that it's modern Rome. It's one third of a portion. It's not the complete. And so it's going to do the same behavior. It's going to perform the same task, but it's not modern Rome. It's an image of modern Rome. And, you know, I'll rest my case. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think there's a bunch of other people— Sorry for wearing you out. Not wearing you out, but—thanks, Brother Larry. Thanks, Brother Jeff. Well, I don't—I want everyone that's on this Zoom to understand, I knew before this meeting started that there was a possibility to have this kind of discussion. So I don't think we have to be that apologetic about having this discussion. And it seems to me that we're— everyone's being careful not to step on people's toes or anything like that. So I'm not too threatened with where this conversation is going. But what I'm saying is, if I was going to use some kind of logic to try to poke a hole in one of the things you're saying, I would do it—and I'm doing it from a friendly point of view—is that the Millerites understood that Rome established the vision. Okay? And I'm saying that it's Rome that establishes the vision at the end of the world. And I'm saying it's the same Rome. It's the Rome in general. And there's three of them—pagan, papal, and modern Rome. And you're suggesting that it's the image of the beast, the image of Rome, the United States. And in doing so, you go into Daniel 11 to make your defense, and you take some of the histories from Daniel 11 and correctly show that those histories from Daniel 11 are illustrating what the United States is accomplishing now in the history of verse 40. Amen. I get that. But here's the logic I would throw at you. If you removed the pioneer foundational position that Rome was what established the vision, and therefore all the lines of prophecy that are in Daniel 11 were no longer governed by treating them as if they were lines of prophecy about Rome—now they're just lines of prophecy—you could come up with a lot of applications. So what I'm saying is that Rome is what establishes the vision of Daniel 11. And the fact that in Daniel 11 there are lines of history that illustrate the work of the United States does not change that it's Rome that establishes the vision. Because as soon as you take Rome out of the position of being the entity that establishes the vision, you either destroy the vision or you create two visions. Because the vision of verse 14 is the vision of prophetic history. Rome establishes that entire vision, and there isn't a secondary vision where the United States establishes that vision. If it was so, we should be able to work the history of the United States back into Daniel chapter 11. I don't think we can do it. Brother Jeff, here's what I would say. We know all that is written is written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world. So remember the former things, right? So when it comes to Rome establishing the vision, the ancient type, if there's a type, they have to be an anti-type. And so that's why earlier on I asked, when in our time, if there is a vision to be established in our time, remember I asked, what is the vision? And I also said, I believe it's the Sunday law. And I'm saying, if it's the Sunday law, it's not the papacy that brings in the Sunday law, it's the image of the beast. So the image of the beast therefore has to be Rome, and so if there's a vision to be established in our time, I'm saying, Rome still established the vision. The question is, who is Rome? That's what I've been... Revelation 17.5 I believe is the answer, because you have the mother and you have the daughters. Just like Salome did the dance of deception, she's not the one who does the act. It's the mother who's actually controlling the daughter that is the one that is establishing the vision of removing John the Baptist's head, or what, you know, plug in the variables there. And so I think where you're, what you're doing is you're missing... No, Brother Larry, you just said something that's not okay. It was Salome who got out and danced. On behalf of the mom, the act of Salome is what got John the Baptist's head. It wasn't because of Herodias asking. She would not have get it, and that's that's plain even system. Who actually cut off the head. Yeah, okay, so it was on behalf. Salome didn't cut off the head to Herod send to get for him to beheaded. Salome gets the head, and then Salome gives it to mom. That's the Sunday Law crisis. So I'm saying it was the, you know, it was Salome's dance, apostate Protestantism, the false prophet that caused the deadly wound to be healed. So I'm saying, yes, mom is behind it, but the king knows mom. You know, so I, if I'm wrong. So if I'm working on behalf of Rome. I'm a representative of Rome. Who am I? I'm a representative of Rome. Okay. So, if if the daughter is working on behalf of the mother, she's a representative of the mother. She's not. I agree. I've been saying that all along but she's still not the mother. Right. She's not the mother. That's my point. That's what I've been saying. He's establishing it. The one who's who's the impetus for all of it is the mother. So, that's what I've been saying. Right. There's a conjunction. I've said that right from the start. So, there's a conjunction but there's a distinction but I'm saying Rodius is represent or sorry, Salome is representing mom. She's an image of mom but she's not mom. I've said that before. Right. In the end of I'm saying John the Baptist would not have cut off sorry Herod would not have cut off John the Baptist head directly for Rodius. So, Rodius knows that just like the Sunday law. The papacy is not the one because Sister White tells us Romanism in the old world apostate, Protestantism in the new world. So, it's the image of the beast. You know, sometimes, you know, if I can't get somebody to react to me, I get somebody else who maybe they'll have some sympathies to and I get them to do exactly what that's all I'm saying. Right. I and I'm I'm willing to leave it and you know. Sure. that it promotes study and I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying what I sure I understand. Yeah. Yeah. And I and I'm not I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm just saying what I'm seeing. So, oh, I know that brother Larry. It's fair. I think it's a fair discussion. I enjoyed the discussion. I think we need to come into unity on these things but unity in Christ, not unity for the sake of unity and so you know, I'm I'm very thankful for your patience and because you know, I really don't want to undermine or anything or anything like that. I don't want somebody to, you know, the Bible has to be the first word, the last word, the judge and the referee. So, I don't want anybody to hold on to anything on unless they have tested themselves but I'm I'm you know, but I have to be, you know, saying, hey, I'm seeing this. I'm not saying I'm right but I'm seeing this, you know, yeah, that's all. Fair enough. That's it. I think that's fair. So, I there's other questions and so, I'm going to unless Jeff has something else to say, I'm I'm happy to allow the next questions, please. Yeah, well, I probably have other things to say but and I will say something here. Um if if I have a concern if if I have a concern about this it's personal concern and it's probably that it would mean that I've been very zealously teaching strongly an erroneous idea for some time and my concern is about who establishes the vision? Is it the testimony, the prophetic testimony of the papal power through history, prophetic history or is it the image of the beast, the work of the United States as the image of the beast and I've understood always and taught specifically that it's Rome that establishes the vision and that it is in the prophetic presentation of Rome, the complete prophetic presentation that you get all the elements of prophetic truth that you need to understand the image of the beast whereas the way I'm understanding the other side of this discussion, it's from the image of the beast that is the point of reference for solving these end time prophetic secrets and I've never what I'm saying is we've always looked in type and then anti-type so that's why I'm saying what is the vision to be established in our time but because I'm saying if it's the Sunday law if that's what it's referring to Which Sunday law? The Sunday law period, it starts with the national Sunday law they have to be a national before it goes to universal so they're connected the Sunday law is connected the national and the universal Sunday law, they're connected and so if the Sunday law, starting in the United States because the Bible gives that, it gives the glorious land and then the Egypt, so I'm just saying if it's the Sunday law if it is, then who established the Sunday law in our time that's all I'm saying, so I'm not I'm not trying to build a case I'm just trying to understand if the vision that the Bible is talking about in anti-type not in type, in anti-type for our time, for our present truth, I'm saying if it is the Sunday law that is the vision for our time the question would be where does it get established or where does it come from that's all I'm saying Colin, would it not have to come from Rome because they're making an image of Rome and they're just doing the work of Rome they're not they're not the thing they're doing the work of the thing Larry, if I work for you right, and you give me a command to go buy something who established what I'm saying, who is going to buy it and I'm saying it's not because you give me the command, it's not because you're in charge I'm the one that's doing it on your behalf, but nevertheless it's me everything falls back that's why God is sovereign because whatever the work happens, it doesn't matter who does it, he takes credit for it because he's the sovereign entity and I think it would work the same with Rome Rome is claiming sovereignty but Salome and Herodias is two different people for sure, two different people they are, but it's the arm of the papacy, so in Daniel in Daniel 11-40 it is the papacy that is using the United States as its military strength, it's not the United States working on its own accord it seems to be working on its own accord but in the background we know that it's just the arm of the papacy is that true? is that a true statement? that's how I understand it Romanism in the old world apostate Protestantism in the new world but apostate Protestantism is just the arm of the military you keep on giving a definition of something that is clear I'm saying, Sister White tells us, it's not the papacy in our time that brings about the Sunday Law it's the image of the beast, so guess what I understand all the dynamics of who's behind matters there, I've said all of that before, but ultimately it's the apostate Protestants of the United States, so that's all I'm saying, you have to recognise the apostate Protestants as an entity, so is Salome Revelation 13 you're talking about, right? there's some good things that are being said here that might be helpful I don't know if Dean wants to add in what people are saying in the chat there might be some insight here that would be helpful anyway, so so yeah, I'm not saying you don't understand that what I hear you saying is, is Revelation 13 is the United States it's not Rome, the church not the papacy and so they're the ones who are actually bringing in Sunday legislation, therefore they're the ones that are establishing the Sunday Law there's a first beast and then there's a second beast that exercises all the power of the first beast so it exercises all the power, so we know it's the same power from beneath so I'm not denying or trying to change any of that, so we know but ultimately for example, Brother Jeff talks in his presentation this morning, we know the dragon, beast and false prophet, right? they're all under the same power but remember he says, but there's like animosity amongst them and you think, how can they be? they're all on the same side but they're different though there's an animosity amongst them there seems to be a consensus in the chat that we're putting people to sleep and that other people would like to contribute so perhaps we should allow the next questions to be asked I was willing to drop it long time ago so let's do that let's move on to the next question so can I say this quick? anybody that's going to sleep in a conversation like this I say shame on them because we have a message, right? and we have you know to be able to see eye to eye based on the scripture so nobody should be falling asleep because this is very important Amen Go ahead, Pat Not to disparage any of your erudite theologians as the one who has an actual degree in theology if we were all sitting around in the living room I'd be the guy at the end of the couch with his head back and his mouth open catching flies but I've thought about the issue of how to put the correct tag on the final iteration of Rome in the world and in my articles that I've wrote I guess especially my little follow up on Daniel and Revelations work on Daniel, my Daniel 11 for dummies article I doubt if I could think that clearly anymore but to try to bring people up to speed about how to discard modern Rome which is the same as modern Babylon on a worldwide scale, I thought about how that the original Babylon was a city state, Nimrod's Babylon was where the devil had control over a city state and so I think in terms of geography next the devil had control through Rome modern Babylon, same thing Western Europe which was not the whole then known world but the world that mattered at that time and so the work of Rome, also known as Babylon is like a cancer that metastasizes and he spreads all over the world and so what we look for in the future is global control by Rome, so I like the word global to indicate this progression and spread of Rome's influence in the world and so that works for me, I don't know if anybody reads my articles, no one's come back to me about it, but I like the term modern global Rome which is the same as modern global Babylon and I'm afraid I just don't get caught up in the nuances of the United States as the premier, the leading kingdom of the final three-fold union I get all of that, it's all Rome, like you said, like we all agree, Herodias is in the background, Jezebel is in the background and the state gets the wool pulled over their eyes, even though they really don't like Herodias that much, we can imagine that Herod was somewhat well yeah, he was separated from Herodias at that point Ellen White says that she was a cast off woman and just really wanted to get revenge on John the Baptist for doing that and so that's what's coming up in the future, I think just simple, I'm a simple minded guy to think in terms of city control continental control and finally global control and so that's where I wanted to throw that in while you guys have fun kicking around in nuts and bolts, it's all good, all important, very good I'm done Jan, you had a question? So, I just wanted to say I really appreciate the iron, sharpening iron because I know we all need that individually and as a group and I really want to thank Elder Jeff in the sense of the Holy Spirit working through humanity and your steadfastness of the truth that you preach and I really appreciate that so I'm kind of new to sharing because I haven't even been on these platforms ever, but anyway so I'm going to have to really hear what Brother Colin is saying and what I would like to share and what I'd like to get feedback on is one thing that I noticed on the charts is when it comes down to the United States and it says image of the beast it says the two lamb like horns republicanism and protestantism whose names are 666 so the engineers understood that Republicanism and Protestantism adds up to 666. So I know the threefold union is 666, but I just wanted to mention that they noticed that Republicanism and Protestantism is also 666. And I found that very interesting. I didn't know that for a really long time. One thing I also wanted to mention is the United States, as well as the Dragon, is moving through history. And somehow we aren't seeing the United States as a beast power, but the United States, when it is formed, the United States has become a beast power. So first it has, in the Sanctuary Service, there were beasts offered, different forms of beasts, and the United States is the lamb-like beast. So we are recognized as the lamb-like beast. But then also, we're also recognized as the Dragon because the United States is the military power of the Dragon power of the world, pretty much. And we're also spiritually known as the False Prophet. So as we move through history, we're taking on these different aspects of what we will be performing and what God wants us to do. So if you can, maybe Brother Jeff or something, give a little adding to that, or whatever you want to say about that, I'd appreciate that. And then I have one other thing after that. Well, I have a couple of the charts here on the wall, and when you said the Republicanism and Protestantism added up to 666, I went over to the chart to refresh what it says on the chart. It's number 50, yeah, chart 50, 1850 chart. Yeah, I remember where it was. But my point is, is that I was a bad listener, because while I was reading over there on the chart, I wasn't following all of what you're saying. And now you're wanting me to comment on it. And I didn't really pay attention. I was just saying... Not that I was ignoring it, but the curiosity came up when you reminded me. Yeah, so just whatever you're thinking of now, just say that, and then I'll repeat the other thing about the charts. Well, I'm not thinking anything. All I wanted to do was see what I wanted to read again, which I haven't read in a long time, where Republicanism and Protestantism adds up to 666. And I didn't catch your point to respond to, so I can't respond to you unless you make your point again, or make your second point. I'm sorry. That's okay. I'm the one that's caused all the problems. No, no, no. We're all human. Okay, so anyway, so what I was saying is, the United States is like the dragon is moving through history. And so, sometimes we keep saying that the United States... I don't... Go ahead. See, one of my concerns, and very few of you would really understand this, because it's nothing biblical, or thus sayeth the Lord, but when I go back and I see how this movement got sidetracked, for me, it happened when we started this school. We weren't ever supposed to start this school. I have my own convictions for doing that, for believing in that. And one of the things about this school, one of many, many, many things, is that I had been teaching a message for years, decades, and then we allowed students to start practicing their teaching, and they began to change, not the message, but something that, a word that I would use to symbolize this, they would change it to another word that they thought was more appropriate. And I didn't say anything. So, when I hear Colin saying the United States is modern Rome, and I've been teaching that the threefold union at the end of the world is modern Rome, that just raises my cackles a little bit to be careful about we need to be on the same wavelength. So, what you just said, you no doubt are not familiar with it, but I've taught and I teach very directly many times through the years that the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet all have their own prophetic characteristics. And the papacy, it never moves. It never changes. It's in the city of Rome from beginning to end. And the false prophet, the United States, it never moves through history. It's always in the United States, whether it's Protestantism or apostate Protestantism, but it is the dragon that moves through history from heaven to the garden of Eden. Eventually he's in Pergamos, then he's in Rome, then he's in France, then he's in Russia, then he's in the United Nations. The dragon is the one that moves. So, it's just a phrase that I've used that you've used probably innocently and maybe with the correct definition, but the United States does not move through history. It's in one geographical place, period. Okay. Thank you so much for correcting that. I'm just, I guess, mentally I'm just understanding that as if the United States changes who it is as history goes along. I could just say as history goes along because first it's the beast, lamb like cow. It does, but I'm teaching that message about the three beasts. I emphasize that Rome never changes and the United States does change. It's the one that changes from a lamb to a dragon. And all the founding fathers, not all, the greatest majority of the founding fathers of this country were rich men that went poor, bringing about the Constitution and the Revolutionary War. They went bankrupt. Where at the end, the United States changed. The leadership of the United States now is doing nothing but trying to steal all the taxpayers' money they can get before they get out of office. So, everything about the United States changes as it goes through history. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I really appreciate that. I don't think I have anything more to say on that. One thing I mentioned last week that I wanted to kind of, I delved into it a little bit more and I got a little bit more information was about the G7, which actually started as the G8 with the, I guess, the oil crisis. I didn't understand what the crisis was. And so, somehow that the word crisis kept coming up in my mind. And so, I went back and studied that. And so, I guess in 1973, the OPEC nations, which I guess started or the Arabs decided that they wanted more money because that they weren't getting as much money. And so, they started to put a tax or something on the other nations. And so, I was seeing this as the Arabs started that crisis, a.k.a. Islam started this crisis in the world, which formulated the G8. And it was quite interesting that the Arabs started the crisis with the nations that started the G8, which is now the G7, which is the Pope is going to join. And then the next crisis that happened was 9-11, which the Arabs started again. And that's just, it kind of struck me that Islam, the Arabs are stirring up the nations and starting these crises. And I just wanted to mention that. Oh, the main thing I wanted to mention is in 1973, when they started the G8, that crisis, the president was Nixon. And with the main thing that I saw was that Nixon said in order, he asked the corporations that were running the gas stations, he asked them to close their stations from evening, Saturday and Sunday. So, kind of like a Sunday law. He asked them to close the stations from evening and Sunday, the evening before in Sunday. And then the EU, in order to restrict the oil, they said they wanted, they limited everybody from driving on Sunday. And then the Netherlands actually limited the energy and made it a law that if you used more, you were put in jail. So, I kind of, this was kind of interesting to me that there was a type of an informal, I guess you would say, informal implication on Sunday. And I don't know if you have anything to say about that. That was quite interesting. Well, there was a quote that came into my mind earlier in the discussion, not when you were here, not when you were speaking in another question. And I'm on, I can't answer your question and speak and search the Helen White CD-ROM at the same time, so I won't try. A quote in the spirit of prophecy that says, any effort for legal restrictions of religious liberty is an act of supporting the papacy. She doesn't say support, concession to the papacy. So, all of these acts through history that are preparing the way for the Sunday law are, if you want to call them a minor Sunday law, it's like the places in the United States that you can't buy alcohol on Sunday. Or when I lived in Washington State for a while, it may not still be this way. You couldn't buy any meat on Sunday. Those were Sunday laws, but they're not the Sunday law of Bible prophecy. But still, they have in them the kernel of the philosophy of Sunday legislation. And Sister White says they're all, let's use it this way, they contribute to the movement to support the papacy. And that's kind of one of the points that I heard Larry making and that I agree with earlier, is that Bible prophecy specifically teaches that Jezebel is hidden. And she's pulling those strings. Everything that's going on right now, I mean, it may be hard to believe, but Rome's behind all of this. That's the prophetic testimony, even if it seems unreasonable to believe that. But look at the connections with the CIA, who started the CIA, and where's their blueprint for information gathering? The papacy's still wrapped up in the political structure of the United States. And they have the majority of the Congress, but you don't hear about it, because they're forgotten during the history of the United States. But the fact that they're forgotten doesn't mean that they're not there. I don't know what that had to do with, because it was a form of concession towards the papacy, what you were mentioning. Right. Okay, I really appreciate it. It's like wearing a face mask, all right, preparing the population to bow down to Rome, whether you see it or not. Right. Okay, blessings, blessings. I really appreciate everyone's comments on everything. Thank you so much. Happy Sabbath. Happy Sabbath. And then we have John. I'm sorry, it's a controversial Sabbath. Well, the discussion is good, though. I think so. I think so. Go ahead, John. Jeff, I just want to make a statement, and please tell me if I'm accurate or not, because as was mentioned earlier, as iron sharpens iron, I could definitely use some sharpening here on my end. So the statement would be, the papacy is modern Rome, and the United States would be an image to modern Rome, but none of that happens until the deadly wound is healed. Is that accurate? No. Okay. The coming together of church and state prophetically began at 9-11. There were things that were accomplished in the history of the United States long before 9-11 that are going to contribute to the Sunday Law and the image of the beast in the United States. But prophetically, on September 11, 2001, the image of the beast testing time began just as the sealing of the 144,000 began. The last work in the heavenly sanctuary is the judgment of the living, and the beginning of the judgment of the living is the sealing of the 144,000, and the 144,000 have a final test. And their final test that they must pass before probation closes is the formation of the image of the beast. And the sealing of the 144,000 and the test of the image of the beast began at 9-11. 9-11. But it's a period of time, and the beginning of that period, 9-11, illustrates the end of that period. We are now in the end of that period. The image of the base, the political, social, religious circumstances that are going to contribute to the Sunday Law in the United States are now taking place in the United States. And before the Sunday Law in the United States, the church and state will come together in the United States, and the proof that the church has accomplished the full takeover of the political structure is when they have the ability to pass the Sunday Law. So the formation of the image of the beast in the United States precedes the Sunday Law in the United States. And once the United States passes the Sunday Law, it's fully disconnected from righteousness. National apostasy is followed by national ruin. Satan appears to personate Christ. All these issues take place, and an unrighteous United States then goes out with its military and economic might to the entire world and says, now you need to set up an image of the beast. You need to set up a structure of the combination of church and state with the papal church in control of the relationship. And as that testing of the image of the beast goes throughout the world, it reaches the point where there will be a World Sunday Law, and then the close of human liberation, then a death decree, a series of sequence of events. So I'm unsure. I can't repeat your comment, but I can. Perfect. First takes place in the United States, and then it is repeated in the world. The conclusion of the image of the beast testing time in the United States is the Sunday Law in the United States, and it marks the beginning of the image of the beast testing time for the other nations of the world. Amen. Thank you, Jeff. I'm going to leave it at that, and thank you so much for everything. Okay. Larry or Michelle, you had a question? Okay, so I've been just sitting here thinking and listening, and I was thinking about our farm was established in 2012, and it was established by Larry and I, and no matter who works for us or goes to market and represents us, Larry and I were the ones that established it. So that was my little comment. Yeah, I've spent so much mental energy on the subject that Rome establishes the vision. That's probably why I'm more careful about that subject than some, but I even go to the point about which vision it is. Is it the Mari vision, or is it the Chazon vision? Because the Bible says where there is no vision, the people perish, and the no vision is the Chazon vision, and that's the vision that's established by Rome, and therefore, if you're incorrect on what it is that establishes that vision, you perish. Amen. Colin, you raised your hand. Yeah, but also the definition of established is also to bring in, but so to bring in. One of the questions that I would ask Brother Jeff, and it's in regards to how would we go about if number eight, so when we look at the eight kingdoms, Babylon, so number six being the United States, number seven being the UN, number eight being modern Rome, how would we reconcile Revelation 17 when it says the eight is of the seven, when we know the one who receives the deadly wound was the papacy, so the eight has to be just the papacy, which is one third of the threefold union that makes up modern Rome. So I'm saying if number eight is modern Rome, then how would we reconcile number six, number seven, and number eight? Because only the papacy that has a deadly wound in the Bible say the eight is of the seven, so we can only put one entity there, which it would be, again, papal Rome that receives the deadly wound. It is the eight and one third of the threefold union, which is number six, number seven, and number eight. Well, I think I get your point you're trying to make, but it doesn't connect with me, because when I look at those kingdoms, I understand they all bring their own characteristics to the threefold union, and Sister White's got a couple clear places where she speaks about the Sunday Law and the threefold union taking place there. So line upon line, if we were to look at Daniel 11, 41 and 42, we would see the papacy conquering first the glorious land of the United States and then the world, Egypt, second. They've already conquered the Soviet Union. I'm just dealing with verses 41 and 42. That's one line. So when I bring the lines from the Spirit of Prophecy together with that line to verse 41, and I know that verse 41 is the Sunday Law, and Sister White says at the Sunday Law the threefold union's formed, I have to bring together the testimony on verses 40 and 41 with the truth that the threefold union is brought together at the Sunday Law. So when I get to Revelation 17, I have to do the same thing. I have to realize, and you know that I know this because you've mentioned it, and you know that I teach the very same thing, that that final kingdom is the sixth kingdom, and therefore the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet are all at one level, the sixth kingdom, and therefore you get six, six, six. They're each part of the final kingdom, and as the threefold kingdom, they are the sixth kingdom. But when inspiration is providing the characteristics of those three powers that make up the threefold union, it identifies that one of those received a deadly wound, the fifth kingdom, and that its deadly wound is healed, and the eighth of the seven is speaking to that truth, because that is the whole story of Bible prophecy, is the healing of the deadly wound. And the ten kings, which are the seventh kingdom, it's teaching us that there's an agreement struck between the United Nations, even though they don't want anything to do with it, to give their kingdom to the beast for one hour, that they're somehow forced into it, because ultimately they're going to burn her with fire. And the sixth kingdom, the United States, it's the deceiving power, according to Revelation 13, verses 11 through 18. It's the one that deceives both the United Nations and the entire world into accepting this relationship. So I don't go into the sixth, seventh, and eighth kingdom of Revelation 17 and demand that the eighth and the sixth kingdom agree to give their kingdom away, simply because the seventh kingdom, that's one of its characteristics, it agrees to give their kingdom away. And therefore, I don't go into the sixth and the seventh kingdom and demand that they had a deadly wound just because the eighth kingdom has a deadly wound that's healed. I line up online, I think those are pieces of information that are just filling out the broader picture, and I don't struggle over that. Thanks for your answer. Well, based on Revelation 13 and 17, you know, when the papacy is—deadly wound is healed, I see that as specific, you know, one hour with the beast when the deadly wound is healed of the papacy. But I do, when I see was, is not, and yet is, I know it's specifically talking about the papal church. So now, would it stand for reason that maybe in the case, the line of Donald Trump, the eighth is of the seven, then it's not just Donald Trump. It could be a combination of others, because I've always seen it specifically as the papacy number eight, and specifically as the papacy number, or Donald Trump number eight. So one, one, the one who receives the deadly wound. How would we reconcile on Donald Trump's side? Would it be him and others, or just him? The eighth is of the seven. For me, I understand that he is the symbol of the Republican horn in that history, and the Republican horn is going to have that characteristic, that of the final eight presidents, the eighth will be of the seven. He will have received a deadly wound. But that phenomenon also occurs in the Protestant horn, as represented by this movement that received a deadly wound in 2020, and it goes into the grave as the seventh church laodicea, and it comes up with the possibility of being the 144,000, which it is not the seventh church laodicean, it's not the 144,000. They are those that have the characteristics of Philadelphia, and so they are of the seven as well. So both the Republican and Protestant horn have this phenomenon. That's how I understand it. I'm not sure why that doesn't square with Revelation 17 in your mind. Maybe it does, but I'm not sure what I'm trying to answer here. Yeah, thank you. I just, as I said, you know, like the eighth church, you know, Philadelphia, the eighth, you know, president, yeah, thank you, specific Donald Trump, and, you know, the eighth, when it comes in the line of the kingdoms there, the papal church, with all the others having their place as part of the threefold union. So I just looked at it as a, you know, the eighth is specifically talking about the one that had the deadly wound go down as the papal church with its loss of civil power, and came back up as the papal church in conjunction with, you know, the apostate Protestants and the ten kings. But I see it as a specific, yeah, but I'll be working on my understanding. So thank you so much. Thank you. Donald Trump is the one, he's the president that received the deadly wound that's going to be healed. Therefore, where it's the quote in the notes that says under one hand, the papal power, that one head of the papal power is of the threefold union. And I read that back into Donald Trump. Donald Trump, when he becomes the eighth, it is of the seven, is not simply going to be president, he's going to become a dictator. And he's going to use the political apparatus of the United States to clean house on the people that he needs to clean house on, that he thinks he needs to clean house on. And he's going to be allowed to do that, because apostate Protestantism is going to support him in that work. So even at that level, I can see Donald Trump as the head paralleling the eighth kingdom, the papacy, the political structure of the United States being represented by the seventh kingdom, the ten kings, and the apostate Protestants that are supporting Trump in his dictatorship are the sixth kingdom, the false prophet. So I'm even seeing those echoes or harbingers, or whatever you want to call them, in that as well. And so I think it's pretty solid, as deep as you want to go. And that's what I'm saying. I agree 100%. But I have an agreement on some of the principles. Mine is mainly on the semantics of modern Rome, and saying that the United States establishes the vision. I don't think you can establish the United States in prophecy without having Rome as your point of reference. Agreed. And that's why I was saying type and anti-type. Agreed 100%. And that's what I was saying. For a type, there's an anti-type, and that's how the scriptures are written. That's why all that is written is written for our admonition. And all that is the form of things we are to remember, so we can put them in present truth application. So that's why for me, the question that I still had was, is the Sunday Law the vision in our time? So that's, I'm working on that, but because if we understand, you know, if it is who established what it means to establish, establishes to bring in, you know, so, you know, and when it comes to the statement, Romanism in the old world, and we are in the new world, apostate Protestantism in the new world. So we have type and anti-type. So I'm just trying to, based on, and okay. You've used that quote, and you've said that three or four times today, and I'm familiar with that quote, but I can't draw up all the details connected with that quote, and you never draw up all the details either. You say Romanism in the old world, apostate Protestantism in the new world. I'm thinking when you go and look at that twofold theme in the spirit of prophecy, she's talking about the area of the globe and the final crisis that the papacy as premier persecuting authority over and the area of the globe, the United States does. It's speaking more about the division of the Sunday law crisis between the Western world and the Eastern world, so to speak. I don't think it's the way, if I'm understanding you right, you're saying Romanism in the old world, past tense, apostate Protestantism in the new world, present tense, and I don't think Ellen White is using old world in that context. She's using old world in terms, the papacy is going to have its influence in Europe, but we wouldn't call it the old world today. We would call it Europe, and the United States apostate Protestantism will have its influence in the Western world, so I would even challenge perhaps this quote that you go to about Romanism in the old world. I don't think that means past. I think the old world is a term for Europe that the Christian church fled from to the new world. Okay. So, along with... And because you're using Rome as old, apostate Protestantism as new, in your type, anti-type, and I'm saying that he publishes the vision as a type in verse 14 when it first comes into history in Daniel 11, and the anti-type is when the papacy's deadly wound is healed at the Sunday Law, and that the work of the image of the beast that leads to the healing of the deadly wound is a work that has to take place in order for the papacy to be healed, and it takes place by a power outside of the papacy. It's pagan Rome that placed the papacy on the throne of the earth. It's the United States that'll place it on the throne of the earth, but Daniel 11, 45 is very informative. It says, but he shall come to his end and none shall help. In all the previous papal history, there's been a power that helped place them on the throne, and the power that helped place them on the throne was pagan Rome in 538, and it's going to be the United States at the Sunday Law, but at the end when papacy's judged, there's none to help. The none that help is a different entity than Rome, the helper. Right. So when we, again, Sister White tells us we want to know about the beast, we first must study, or the image of the beast, we first must study the beast, and I can, for me, in my reconciling of when I read those statements, there is a, just as God type and anti-type, the former things, you know, when she talks about scenes similar to these will be repeated, it's always about the past. The Bible is written as the past for our admonition, and all history, the past for all history is written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the earth is. So it is, the Bible is always given in the sense of our guiding light is the past, whether or not it be Rome, in the old world, what it's done, it's coming, what will come in the new world. So in other words, because the Bible in Revelation chapter 13 tells us the image of the beast will exercise all the power of the first beast, so we have to understand Romanism in the old world so we can understand apostate Protestantism. So that's how I look at it, but, you know, my views on all of that might be wrong. Two things, two things. In Great Controversy, I've looked it up, page 579, just a couple of sentences, it says, then the revelator declares, also referring to the papacy, all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life, Revelation 13a. In both the old and the new world, papacy will receive homage and honor paid to the Sunday institution that rests solely upon the authority of the Roman Church. There's no way to read that other than she's defining Europe as the old world and the Western world as the new world. She's not talking about history. In both the old and the new world, okay, so she's placing them as simultaneous geographical entities, and I'm saying that you are using that to suggest that the prophetic testimony of the papacy is the old testimony, the United States is the new testimony, and that may very well be true. I don't think it is, but it may very well be true. But this passage that you're referring to in the Great Controversy, it's not saying Notice here's another quote where she uses old world and new, and this is in the Great Controversy 616, Romanism in the old world and apostate Protestantism in the new will pursue a similar course toward those that honor all the divine precepts. And the key word for our discussion there is the word will. This is all future tense. Romanism in the future in the old world and apostate Protestantism in the future in the new world will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts. So what I'm saying is your reliance upon her references to the old world and the new world, you're not understanding that she's not talking about history, she's talking about dividing the world into two parts, old and new. Brother Jeff, I understand that, but here's what, we'll pursue a similar course. So what I'm saying is we have to know what Romanism is all about in the old world. And that's what I keep saying. So if we want to know what's coming, she says we'll pursue a similar course. So we have to know the course. And that's why I said if we want to know about the image of the beast, we first must go study the beast. So even if location is not mentioned, if somebody says, well, Colin is going to pursue a similar course to Kathy, well, they have to go and see what Kathy has done. And that's what I keep, you know, in that sense. So now, but we know that as much as the papacy, and I keep on saying the papacy is the force to be reckoned, but she's the one in Samaria, as you would put it. So I'm saying the one who brings about all of that, right? And so even with the repudiation of the constitution, what does America become? It becomes, you know, lawless, right? So who is all of that being typified by? And I'm saying it's, I can be wrong, but I've just been making my point as for discussion as to that is the image of the beast, and we know the beast is the papacy. So if, regardless of time, regardless of anything, if somebody, if someone is going to pursue similar course, I'm saying we have to know what the course by somebody else was, similar course. So how do we know? That's why I said we keep on, we would have to study what the beast has done to understand what the image of the beast will do, because it's a similar course. That's what I'm saying, because Romanism in the old world, and we know Europe, or what the kings of Europe did, you know, starting with King Clovis, so I'm saying when it comes to the image of the beast, it is different from the beast, but it is spitting image of the beast. That's that's what I'm saying. Okay. Okay, I'm just challenging you're using the old world, the new world, but you can remove that and still have all everything you believe, I don't have a problem with that, but, and I believe that the beginning always illustrates the end, so we're on the same wavelength there, but I do believe that verse 14 is the critical, it's, in some ways, in some ways, this is sound crazy, but in some ways, verse 14 is the most important verse in the Bible, and I know that that's going to raise people's hair, but in the sense that whoever that player is in verse 14 that establishes the vision, you have to have that vision or you perish, so it's not the most important verse in the Bible, but you get my point. So it was a controversy in Millerite history, that verse, so much so that the only notation on either of the pioneer charts that isn't direct from the Bible is that argument of verse 14 of Daniel 11, and here we are this Sabbath day as we're getting ready to come to the final scenes of earth's history that are illustrated in Daniel 11, and we're needing to spend time to sort out how we understand verse 14 of Daniel 11, and to me, that even puts more emphasis on the importance of being correct about what it is in verse 14. Is it the United States at the end of the world, or is it Rome, in the general sense, that it's the message of Rome that establishes all the prophetic narrative? Amen, and Brother Jeff, and that's why, you know, I was asking, you know, and I did say what I, you know, in my question, you know, disclosure, I did say, could that vision in, you know, or is this such a thing, you know, could that vision for our time, you know, be the Sunday Law, or is this just talking about what Rome has done in the past? And that's why I kept asking that question. Is it just about the past, or would it be repeated in our time? And if it's repeated in our time, is that the Sunday Law? So that's why I keep poking at that question, or is it something, in your understanding, Rome established the vision that was back then, and that's it? Or is it going to be repeated in our time, as Rome established the vision, and then my question is, not so much who established it, but, you know, first to start with, could that vision, if it happens in our time, could it be the Sunday Law crisis? Well, you've asked several times what the vision is, and that's probably a broad question, but just reminding us, verse 14, whoever the power is establishes the vision, and in verse 16, you have the Sunday Law illustrated as Pompey conquers Jerusalem. So in answer to your question, what is the vision? The vision, by my definition, is the vision that is unsealed, represented by the seventh seal, and the unsealing of the seventh seal includes the seven thunders, that portion of Daniel that relates to the last days, Daniel chapter 2, and the image of the beast of Nebuchadnezzar, all these true stages of the seven that have been unsealed since July 2023 are the opening of the seventh seal, and I would argue that is the vision, and that vision, I would argue, begins on September 11, 2001, and it represents the period of time when the 144,000 are sealed, and it begins on September 11, 2001, and it goes to the Sunday Law, but that very same history is the history of the formation of the image of the beast, which is the great test by which the people of God will determine their eternal destiny. The vision that is being unsealed is not a singular event, such as the Sunday Law, but the Sunday Law is the climax of that period that is the vision that's being unsealed, and the vision is September 11, 2001, and to the Sunday Law, and it's all the lines of prophecy go there, but what gives us the point of reference to understand that correctly is Rome. Amen. So, Brother Jeff, I love what you just said. especially starting 9-11. But wouldn't that be referenced also to the Patriot Act where America really, really, really comes out more speaking as a dragon? Yeah, that's part of it. Everything that happened at 9-11 is part of that vision. That vision is what Ezekiel sees in the sanctuary, all the wills within the wills and the heavenly beings. At first, it looks complex, but it gets an order about it when it's studied. And so there's many things we can point to in the history of 9-11 and the Sunday Law. But I don't know how we could get there if we didn't have Rome, if we didn't understand that Islam is raised up as a punisher of Rome, if we didn't understand that it's all about the healing of the deadly wound, we didn't understand that the papacy always has a helper to place her on the throne of the earth, and that that helper is distinctly different. The prophets of Baal are different than Jezebel, Salome is different than Herodias, and the United States is different than modern Rome. But all of that is illustrated in the history of September 11, 2001 to the Sunday Law. But anyway, I'm sure some people are... Brother Jeff, thank you for your patience. Thank you. Shall we end this so you can have your health presentations and stuff? It's up to you, I don't care. It's up to you. I mean, we have three more hands raised. You can end it, and then we can just open it up to free discussion, or you can take a few more questions. It's up to you. I think there is no health presentation today. Okay, I'll take the three questions, not a problem. My answer might be a problem, but I don't know. We'll see. Whoever is labeled as Wawamate2, go ahead. Hello, good evening, and good afternoon to you all, and happy Sabbath to everyone. I just wanted to ask Elder Jeff Pippenger, just very briefly, why do you see the vision from 9-11 instead of 1989, whereby Rome is manifest at 1989? Well, at one level, I don't know your familiarity with what we teach, okay, but at one level, 1989, September 11th, they're the same thing, because 1989, an angel arrived with a message, and in 2001, that very same angel's message was empowered. So the period of 1989 to 2001, the message is being presented, developed, understood, and then with the arrival of the third woe, that message was confirmed to be true, and at that point, the testing process begins. So the vision that is going to define whether you perish or you don't perish is obviously a vision that has an element of testing to it, if it's gonna determine your eternal life, and the testing process of the message that arrived in 1989, everyone was being tested from 1989 onward, but from September 11th, 2001, with the confirmation of the third war arriving and paralleling the history of the Millerites, now the actual testing process of those that have been called to be among the 144,000 began, and it began right in the point of the history of the United States, where they began to make their movements towards the Sunday Law. It began where the third woe began its agitation that was gonna anger all the nations. There's several lines that go through there, and that's why I do that, but I'm not trying to deny 1980. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. Yep. Henry, do you have a question? Yeah, okay, good evening, please. Elder Jeff, I wanted to ask a question on the three voices. I mean, in the book of Revelation chapter 18, you made mention of two voices, that is the first and the last, and then when it comes to Ezekiel chapter 37, we have two voices there. I don't know if I'm making a correct, if I'm correct. So I just want to be clear about the three voices. You made mention that Isaiah chapter 40, comfort you is the middle voice, which is the midnight cry. So I want to be clear that comparing Revelation chapter 18, first and the last, and then Ezekiel 37, first and the last, then Isaiah 40 being the second voice, which is the middle voice. And then Ezekiel, Habakkuk, sorry, Habakkuk chapter two, which is also the voice of the tiring time. And then Revelation chapter 11, being the last voice that's confirmed the covenant of the 144,000. I want to be clear about all these three voice. How, I'm just trying to understand, how am I going to align it with 9-11, 2020 and 2023, and then Sunday law, these four remarks. How am I going to align all these three voices? If we get me right. I think I understand what you're asking. Sister White says, when the great buildings of New York City were thrown down by touch of God, that Revelation 18 verses one through three was fulfilled. So at 9-11, when the buildings of New York City came down, the first angel of Revelation 18 cried aloud. At the Sunday law, that same angel is going to cry a second time in Revelation 18 verses four and five. And we know it's a Sunday law because we take those verses and we run them through the spirit of prophecy. And she's clear. You don't need the spirit of prophecy, but she's clear that the second voice of Revelation 18 is the Sunday laws, when God's others are called out of Babylon. And the middle voice that I identify is not the passages that you're referring to. I refer to those passages, but when it comes to three voices that mark that history, the middle voice to me is Michael, when he called the sleeping dead dry bones out of their graves. Okay, so you have the voice of the archangel in the middle and that begins the testing process that separates the wise and foolish virgins for the final time of the 144,000. So those three voices, 9-11, the first voice of Revelation 18, 23, July, 2023, when the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are called out of the grave, they stand on their feet. And then the Sunday law, the second voice of Revelation 18. I don't know that you read, now I'm switching gears a little bit, but I don't know if you've read the articles to the extent to where I go through and mark the various expression that developed through the book of Revelation. And what I mean by that, I'll give you an example in just a second. And it's the expression that we're all familiar with where it says there are voices and lightnings and thunderings and an earthquake. And I don't, I'm looking for the first one. But in any case, yeah. In the history that we're referring to, have you read that article, Henry? Yeah, yeah, I'm still on it. Actually, I'm about to finish Revelation and then I'll turn on to Daniel. So I would just, I was just trying to- Let me finish this point before someone else has no idea what I'm talking about. This expression, voices, lightning, thunderings, earthquakes is found four or five times in the book of Revelation. And if you're careful with it, you'll see that it develops as it goes through Revelation. There's things that are added to it as it goes through the book of Revelation. And if you watch those things, every one of them, the voices, the lightnings, the thundering, the earthquakes, there may be something that I'm forgetting. They're happening in a specific sequence that goes along with the close of probation. So my point is, is if you take those expressions, thunders, lightning, voices, earthquakes, and trace them down through the history, prophetic history, voices is not simply the three voices of that history, 9-11, July, 2023, and the Sunday Law. It also represents prophetic testimonies that come in at that time. There's a plurality of prophecy opened up. So without taking the time to write down all five of those verses in Revelation, I just have to give you a summation of that because I don't have on the forefront of my head, but there's none of those three voices in that history, is what I'm saying. But I point to those three as the signature of truth, where the beginning is the same as the ending. And then when we're called out of our grave in July, 2023, it's the testing of the 10 virgins. Are you going to accept this message which calls on you to repent? Or are you gonna reject it? Are you gonna reject the light of the image of the beast in Daniel chapter two, and therefore the rebellion there? And it's in the middle way mark where rebellion is manifested. Go ahead, Henry. Yeah, I think as I understand on the three voices you were talking of, in one of the article that I was studying, you said Ezekiel 37, the voice that, the first prophecy that Ezekiel prophesied, there was a voice. And then you pointed, you applied it to be the comfort voice of Isaiah chapter 40, which is the second voice. So I was trying to get some clarity on these three voices. Maybe you can sometime do a presentation on that. I don't know. I'm curious. I don't know too. I don't know anything about that. Yeah, I don't see a voice in that passage in Ezekiel 37, but he was prophesying to them. Anyway, what you're doing here is good stuff, but it's a whole bunch of lines that are hard for me to keep in my head and give an answer to in this kind of environment. I'd have to, I need to have those passages in front of me. And I needed to have whatever you've read that I've written, I need to read it and refresh myself before I answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, that's why I wanted, maybe you can take your time. I can give you one reference on the book of Revelation article 16 and 17. You can go there and check. 16 and 17? Yeah, in that article. All right, I'll check it out. I'll try to get a clear answer on your questions there. Yeah. Go ahead, Bonnie. Okay, thank you, Brother Dean. Hi, Brother Jeff, and thank you for your presentation and all your patience in addressing all our multiple questions from different points of view or different angles and happy Sabbath. And I just wanted to bring up the Jesuits. As we were, I was listening to the discussion about between yourself and Colin mostly, I kept thinking about what you had said earlier about papal Rome as number five, taking on the characteristics of paganism as well as a Christian presentation as well. And then modern Rome taking on another presentation that being to my understanding, that of spiritualism. So, and then I was thinking about your church chair, which you referred to as the church service. I know you, so the church service as you'd say looking at Herod and Herodias and Salome and all that, it was like Salome was a proxy. And when I started thinking about proxies, I started thinking about the Jesuits. So my question really is about the Jesuits. And they do, they've done things in secrecy behind the scenes, multiple layers, between them and the actual occurrences throughout history since they were, since their inception. And I just wondered if you would comment on, is it important for us to, to keep that in mind, to recognize, in recognizing, being able to recognize the movements that we are to recognize as you had stressed earlier, that, that, and we, well, I'll speak for myself, I have, I'm aware that the Jesuits have been implicated in their involvement with the wars in Israel and Gaza and Ukraine and all that as well. And in the American government, and probably in the religious movement and, and the United Nations, I mean, they're everywhere. So is that an important thing that we should be also discussing? Well, Sister White mentions the Jesuits. Okay, so, so it's to me, that gives you at least a point of reference and inspiration does address them. But to me, they kind of fit into the discussion that we have about Isabel being behind the scene pulling the string. The history of the Jesuits is, is fairly easy to search out, choose to. Some of some of the important history they've destroyed as the years went by, it's hard to find some of the original literature that proves that they had their hand in assassinating Abraham Lincoln, but those books are still available. I have some of them. So the when we're talking about the papacy being pulling, papacy pulling strings from behind the scenes, the Jesuits are, you know, part of that work. But just off the top of my head, okay, this is, I'm going to answer you probably different than what you were expecting. I'm convinced that that right now, our responsibility, as God's children, is to be understanding this prophetic message as it is recorded in the Bible in spirit of prophecy. There, there are truths within what we're looking at in this group here, we're trying to have a discussion all afternoon along about who establishes the vision in verse 14. Is it the Pope or is it the United States or whatever? We have issues to resolve in the prophetic message and time's running out. And the prophetic message is not only going to provide us with the message to give the warning to those around us with, but the bottom line of the message is it is what provides the power that transforms us into his image. And so I would be very careful. I have two close connections that within the last week with both those persons, I've had discussions with them, not at my initiation, just came up on how negative watching the news is anymore. It's a, for those two people and for myself, and I have a hunch for almost everyone, it's by beholding you become changed. It's a negative, zero sum game, especially unless you have the confidence that you have a grasp on this prophetic message from beginning to end to where it has become part of you, you know it, you eat and drink it, and you can teach it to others. We don't have the time to be going and researching the history of the Jesuits or how many people in Congress went through a Jesuit university like Bill Clinton did. Okay. I know those stories, but those are distractions at this point in time, as far as I can tell. Okay, I guess the reason I mentioned that was because when talking about Rome establishes the vision, what is Rome? I mean, the stated mission of the Jesuits is to install Rome again in the position of power over the whole world in all aspects. So if we're talking Rome, what is Rome? That's what our discussion has been about. And I think it because it's difficult to manage everything that Rome is. Even though she doesn't change, she adds proxies, she adds to her, and she doesn't change her core values and core mission, but the Jesuits are busy doing all of that in every walk of life globally. And so that's one way of understanding, to my understanding anyways, to understand Rome establishing the vision. Her proxies are doing that. How would Herodias have harnessed the civil power of Herod without Salome? She was cast off, right? So how would she? How would she have done that without Salome as a proxy? That's, so I think, I don't know, I think, to our, to my understanding, it's important, because it makes sense. It's logical. They're the grassroots behind everything, but it looks different when you look at it from the other side. And it's difficult to approach an understanding of what Rome is from the other side, unless you consider, I mean, for me, the fact that there is a stated mission of the Jesuit order to put Rome back on the throne of the earth. And they're doing that everywhere. So yeah, I just thought it might add some clarity. That's how I understand it, is that she's behind the scenes. And she's got not just the Jesuits, but all kinds of her little sects, you know, Knights of Columbus, all those little orders are doing their own. I mean, yes, we're far down the stream in time. Every aspect of our society is impacted by Roman principles. Yeah. Okay, thank you very much. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your Sabbath. You too. Yeah. It looks like that's the last of the questions. We maybe want to close with prayer. We can end here and then and we'll go on from there. Okay. Heavenly Father, we thank you for this Sabbath. And I asked that the discussion that I started that I brought up, that it would be a benefit to all of us that would also be an object that would also be an object lesson that we have areas of prophecy that we still don't fully unite upon. And we want to be in unity. We want to see eye to eye. We know that happens with this message and the people that proclaim it. We ask that this day's discussion be a step forward in that regard. Help us all to get ready. Know that there are several of us in this little group that are having our own struggles, financial health, so on and so forth. And we lift all those needs up. And ask that you accomplish them according to your will. Give us some relief down here. In Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Thank you, Brother Jeff.